Mommas, please don't let your babies grow up to play with toy guns....

Dear the Parents who walked around The Palo Alto, California Avenue Farmer's Market today, with a boy on your shoulder, carrying a toy gun, that looked very, very real, and pretending to shoot at everybody walking by:

Maybe I am being somewhat critical and judgmental.  I am the mom of two girls, who have never played with toy guns, and have no interest in toy guns.  Maybe I just live in the middle of liberal, hippy land, where we teach our kids kumbaya, saving the environment, getting George Bush out of office and obviously hold liberal points of view.  I don't know, maybe I am over-reacting.  But when I saw your four (maybe five) year old son on your shoulders, carrying a toy gun (gosh, I certainly hope it was a toy gun, and not REAL!) and pretending to shoot everyone in the crowd, I just had to judge you.

May I make some "friendly" suggestions here?  Maybe if he is "really" into guns, you purchase a few plastic toy guns that DO NOT look real.  Or maybe you tell him that guns are not appropriate for a four year old to be carrying around, and focus him on something else, like Lego's.  Or maybe you all go together to a child psychologist and learn that carrying a gun around, in a crowd of people in the heart of Palo Alto, California is NOT appropriate, at any age.  And just maybe, you might take this a little more seriously.  Cause Parents of this kid, I was not the only one staring at (and judging) you and your kid.  I am just the only one blogging about it.

Comments

[svtwinmom]

At a park in Bend, Oregon, my kids cowered behind a play structure, trying to hide from 3 older boys "shooting" each other with very real looking guns. One boy was wearing camouflage, like a hunter. Ok, so this was Oregon and maybe I'm like you, a liberal from hippy land, but I saw fear in the eyes of my children.

[Tara]

amen, amen,amen! Gosh, are people that STUPID? I could see this being acceptable in, i don't know, TEXAS. But people, WTF? Don't you know no one around here finds this cute. They find it offensive and will JUDGE YOU, the parents who don't know that guns are simply evil! Go take a parenting class, NOW.
Great post, Jill.

[pamela]

Too bad we can not handout parenting violations and tickets to bad parents. That is really bad. I hate guns, not something my kids ever had, but tried to accept if others did. But NOT in a public place like the lovely Farmers Market!

[Nicole/wksocmom]

While I would not want to have a realistic gun pointed at me, I could probably think of worse parenting violations. And yes, my kids have constant battles (wth guns and other weapons made from wood, styrofoam, legos, pretty much anything they find) but no realistic toy guns. I seriously doubt this is covered in any parenting class, however. I'm not sure where a child psychologist fits in here.

As we were told by a most excellent and seasoned kindergarten teacher, kids will make weapons even if you never let them have toy weapons. And a wild boys superhero battle might be more inclusionary than a quiet girls pow wow that leaves some kids out.

[Kim]

Honestly, when I saw the title of the post, I figured it was written by a mom of girls.

My number 2 son, much to my shock, was "one of those boys" always making the odd stick or bread crust into a pretend gun. But giving your kid a realistic looking toy gun to tote around in public is a bit much.

[CCH]

I don't think it is a parent-of-boy vs parent-of-girl thing. If he is into shooting up in public, let him do it with his finger, stick, etc. A realistic toy gun is not appropriate in a public setting.

And what about the safety of the actual child carrying the gun? What prevents someone (crazy) from pulling a gun on him (seeing the gun in a crowd)? Or maybe the boy wanders away to a park with his sibling, someone sees him holding a gun on another child from a distance and interferes?

[Jill Asher]

Just to note, I don't care if it was a boy or girl. Walking around with a kid on your back, holding a gun that looks VERY REAL is irresponsible parenting. Sorry for being so blunt, but it is.... especially in the world that we live in.

[Naveena]

Great post Jill! Perhaps you should have called Palo Alto Police Dept and let them know of a potential gun situation at the market? Or let a local security officer know?

If a police officer approached the parent and asked to look at the gun indicating that the child's gun was being considered a threat, perhaps the parent would have realized the seriousness of the situation? or their idiocy in letting their kid walk around with one?

[joannaas]

clearly the gun didn't really look real being carried by a 4 or 5 year old hanging out with their parents. I went to a lecture by some Nueva pre-school teachers through PAMP a few years ago. They gave two examples of kids: two boys playing with fake guns and pretending to kill themselves and others, and two girls not being very nice to the other girls around them and not allowing them to play. They argued that the girls' behavior was far more damaging than the behavior by the boys. Just something to think about.

[Rebecca]

Jill, I'm with you! Weapons are strictly banned at my children's preschool, even with notes that go out around costume days that remind the parents of the rule.

I don't care if girls or boys or dogs or cats or whatever. Guns kill people and they scare me!

I do actually have a boy, and he has never played with guns ... so far at least ... and since he doesn't get it at preschool, where he spends 9-10 hours/day, it would have to be from us. And we sure won't give him one.

[Mom of 2 boys]

Geez. It's just a kid with a toy and you've obviously never parented a son :) Boys will be boys and I see absolutely no danger in boys playing with toys. Pretty soon they grow out of the phase and move onto something else. And it's pretty ridiculous that you would judge someone's parenting skill or suggest that they need counseling because they allow their child to play with a toy. What is the difference in that and allowing someone to breastfeed in public and have their boobs all hanging out for my 4 year old to see? (BTW, that does not offend me, just offering it up as an example)

[Mom of 1 boy and 1 girl]

I am going to have to agree with the author on this one. I am the mom of one boy and one girl. Toy guns are completely NOT APPROPRIATE (for either sex) to be carried around in public. I don't care if they look real or fake. I don't care if they are made out of lego's or wood, or sticks.

And to Mom of 2 Boys: What does having a child walking around with a toy gun have ANYTHING to do with breastfeeding in public? I am having trouble making the connection.

I don't know, this all seems very simple. Don't let your sons walk around, in public, especially at a Farmer's Market, pretending to shoot folks in the crowd. Is that too much to ask?

[Leslie]

A mom I know took her kids to Disney. Her son wanted a pirate pistol from the Pirates of the Caribbean gift shop, which conveniently is where you get dumped off when the ride ends.

Refusing to take "no" for an answer, the kid shoplifted the gun by sticking it down his pants. When they got back to the hotel he packed it in his carry-on bag.

Somehow the airport security guys didn't think it was all that funny when they spotted the gun on the x-ray.

His mom didn't think it was funny either when the police showed up and she had no idea why.

[pamela]

Kids get shot for waving toy guns around. There is just nothing amusing about a kids pretending to shoot and KILL people. Even if you choose to let your kids play with toy guns,you should have the common sense not to let them use them in public in a way that can potentially harm them and offend others. I have three boys and a girl. My kids do play with light sabers and swords, and have shot each other--but we do not walk through town pretending to be snipers. I see no excuse for the behaviors Jill described in her post.

[Jill Asher]

Wow. So many comments!
Let me respond to a few things:

1. Yes, the gunlooked very real. That is what made it so shocking.... a boy on his father's back, waving around a toy gun. And of all places, at a Farmer's Market!

2. I could care less if this was a boy or girl. In my opinion, it is irresponsible parenting to have your child walking around with a toy gun, in public. As some of the comments below mentioned, it is simply dangerous to wave around a toy gun in a public setting. What if someone mistakenly thought it was real? (I didn't even think of that when I wrote the post).

3. I am missing the connection between breastfeeding in public and a little boy carrying around a toy gun. Can anyone clarify?

4. In general, I am not against boys (or girls) pretend playing with toy guns. I get it - boys and girls play are different. Running around to pretending to shoot or "bang, bang" one another at home is one thing and fine. Doing it in public is quite different. And waving it around a Farmer's Market is simply stupid!

That is all for now. Glad I could spark on a "healthy" debate.

Cheers.
Jill

[ParatrooperJJ]

Gee that yellow tip looks so real!!!!! I would have been soooo scared!!!

[MT]

Healthy Debate? Well there is a health related angle to this - but the problem is not necessarily with the parents of the child from the Farmer's Market. Hoplophobia*. It's the irrational fear of weapons & I would humbly submit that it extends to irrational fears of weapon-like objects.

This occurred in California, which I half jokingly refer to as the place beside America. But even in that Locke-forsaken land I cannot see any cop in his right mind shooting a 4 year old from off his dad's shoulders over a "gun-like" object in his hands. Course this is Cali we're referring to, so perhaps the prejudice towards gun owners would make that seem an acceptable action to a cop from there. Be that as it may, suggesting to call the cops (as one commenter did)? In principle that'd be the equivalent of reporting a possible rape in progress if you saw 2 pre-schoolers kissing. Not only would it demonstrate a lack of tact on the caller's part, but potentially create a dangerous situation where none existed before.

Might I submit that folks who do not seem to be that familiar with weapons aren't the best judge of how realistic a toy gun is? No offense y'all, but I don't make a big deal over how "real" a faux Gucci handbag looks as I have limited experience with the real thing. What looks "realistic" to y'all may not be so convincing to others, especially in the hand of a small child.

The breast feeding thing - I believe the point was that some people find that offensive when done in public & that the offense to some (or many) should not justify a prohibition on harmless behavior.

& the heart of it (as was implied by the breast feeding analogy) is simply this - a small child with a toy gun in the company of his parents presents no actual danger. What it does is offend the sensibilities of some folks, especially those which suffer from some form of hoplophobia. In some instances (as was pointed out) this has gone so far as to take the form of bans on any type of toy weapon (even drawings or likenesses in some places). While y'all may see this as a legitimate reaction to an object you fear & vilify, people like me see it merely as another form of prejudice against myself & others of my culture.

Ask yourself this: would you make such a big deal over a kid in the company of his parents carrying a children's bible? Or a toy sword? Or a toy car? Those things are all symbolic of implements that have caused far more harm than guns have (while at the same time they have, like guns, also proved equally if not more beneficial than harmful).

So what I'm offering is that it's not a legitimate concern for the kid's well being that makes you uncomfortable with the thought of him playing with a toy gun in public, but rather your discomfort with a representation of an object that either of itself or of the culture it symbolizes is a subject of your fear & misunderstanding.

The html seems to be disabled so here's a link with a more concise definition of hoplophobia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplophobia

[Linoge]

Where to start, where to start...

Eh, I guess the LEGOs are good enough. I was raised by a mother who would not allow me to have actual toy firearms, period. I am sure she had some manner of rationale for it, but the reasoning behind it is irrelevant. However, being a somewhat inventive young man, and having one massive collection of the blocks you mentioned... well, you can imagine what the end product was. Furthermore, I had some rather impressive scale battles surging across my bedroom floor as a child... Certainly more violent than just a toy gun, let me tell you. Even if I did not have the LEGOs, it is amazing how nature can create some decent gun-like items itself. Mother Nature is evil! Or pro-gun... and therefore evil!

Now, as for the toy in question. I have the unfortunate fate of living in the People's Republic of Kalifornistan as well, and have been growing more familiar with its laws over the span of my internment here. I might have missed something, and I am probably oversimplifying, but toy guns here have to be very clearly marked, with bright green or orange colors. Granted, this toy could have come from out of state, but, even so, most toys are still very clearly marked as being non-bullet-firing toys. Furthermore, it was a child carrying the object in question. Depending on the age of the child, it would be somewhat... difficult... for him to carry a real gun, much less wield it short of dropping it on his father's head.

And now on to the topic of carrying a firearm... I am definitely going to have to respectfully disagree with you that carrying a firearm in a crowded area is not appropriate at any age. If I had a choice in the matter, I would be doing just that. As it is, I have a license to do so in the state of Florida (as well as the many states that share reciprocity with Florida), but Kalifornistan does not share reciprocity, and trying to secure a concealed-carry license here is either easy (if you live in the boondocks), difficult (supposedly requiring some illicit activities with the Sheriff's Department in some cities), or impossible (so long as you are not a celebrity). However, in terms of self defense, there is absolutely nothing wrong with carrying a firearm in a crowded area. Of course, we are talking about real firearms, not a toy carried by a child.

And now on to the real question: Do I think the activities of the child/parent were in appropriate? Of course I do - the child was violating all four rules of firearm safety, and the parent was allowing him to do so. "Shooting it up" with your friends is fine, but, even at that early age, children should be taught how to properly handle a firearm, fake or not.

It is sad that we have become sufficient sheep that this kind of thing is so radically and emotionally reacted to these days. It was not long ago when children, yes, children, could be seen walking down main streets of towns and cities around the country with BB guns, .22s, and who-knows-what-else. Of course, that sadness is offset by the humor of seeing residents of this "fine" state acting as though they are better than others, or somehow different... Just another thing to file in the "Get me out of here" box...

[Molon Labe]

All you hoplophobes can rest assured that this situation will NEVER happen when the kid is old enough to exercise his Constitutional rights, because in the People's Republik of Kalifornia, law-abiding citizens have none...

[Peter]

This seems to be about 'judgement' rather than anything else.

People 'judge' someone who allows a small child to wave around a toy gun?

Puh-leeze.

A human being that small hasn't the strength to hold, much less wave around, a real handgun. If you indeed had any 'judgement' you'd have known that.

Moreover, those of you who are 'judging' are themselves being judged. And not positively.

Please keep your irrational fear and your 'judgements' to yourself. They reflect badly on yourselves far more than your opprobrium against a child and his father.

And what does the Farmer's Market have to do with anything? Is that one of those so-called 'gun free zones'? Have none of you figured out that those are simply guideposts to criminals assuring them that they can do whatever they want?

If you want to be sheep, by all means do so. Don't impose that on me, OK?

[Molon Labe]

Quick, call Children & Youth Services...I just saw a child out in our waiting room holding a set of car keys...

I cannot believe some idiot parent would let an infant drive. Do they make booster seats large enough for that?

[Charles H. Sawders]

You gotta be kidding me. Take your wet panties home and hide there. Do not show your face outside your home. You are unfit for society or reality. Be as fearful as you wish, don't demand that everyone else be.

In the first place all you hoplophobes are liars. You are neither opposed to guns or violence. You just want to hire it done by people who wear uniforms and promise to serve you. Police and military. Or you would demand that they eschew the use and possession of firearms that are real. You do not. Ergo, you favor weapons and their use, but only in your service and if you don't have to risk anything personally.

You are a shame to this country and its founders and protectors.

You don't live in hippyland, you live in me me me me land.

[pamela]

Proud to be holophobic! Though one could argue that fearing weapons is logical...oh, I forgot, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Try telling that to innocent victims of gun violence. You may have the right to be armed, you never know when a militia may end up on your door step, but pretending that guns are not dangerous is untrue.

[LawyerMama]

Well, I don't live in California. I grew up in the South and am quite comfortable with guns. I currently live in SE Virginia where guns are quite common. My husband grew up on a farm in rural Nebraska. We're *both* quite comfortable with guns.

But I still don't like my sons playing with them and they sure as hell aren't going to do it in public. Why? Guns aren't toys and I want them to respect that. When they're a bit older I'll allow them to play with guns that are as far from realistic looking as possible, but not until they're old enough to know the difference. If they run across an unsecured hand gun in a friend's home I don't want them to think it's OK to play with.

I actually quite resent the implication of several of the above posters that if I agree with Jill or am opposed to allowing small children to play with somewhat realistic looking lethal weapons in public that I am: (1) unfit for society; (2) a liar; (3) a shame to this country and its founders and protectors; and (4) a wetter of panties. (Yeah, that last one was for the laugh.)

Despite my comfort level with firearms I am still not entirely comfortable with people carrying them around in public. Why? Because some people are hot headed idiots and common sense isn't a legal requirement for a gun permit in my state. And apparently common sense isn't a requirement in many other states either....

[PunditMom]

I have to vote with Jill on this one. Maybe we could take all that energy by some of the commenters and redirect to something a bit more positive like, say, world hunger?

[MT]

Miss Pamela,
It's not logical to fear an inanimate object. It seems socially acceptable in some places to be hoplophobic because of the prejudice that is condoned against gun owners but it simply does not follow any decent string of logical thought to fear an object all by itself. You wouldn't proudly proclaim your fear of cars would you? Or assert boldly that the 50,000 or so killed every year in crashes & accidents are killed by cars rather than the drivers of same?

I don't recall anyone saying that guns were not dangerous. What was stated a time or two was that toy guns aren't dangerous. While they can be used in a dangerous manner (i.e. attempting to pass one of as real during a confrontational crime) so can most anything, from a pen to a slightly filled bucket of water.

It is about the person, not the object. & that is the most vicious part of hoplophobic reactions to certain situations - it's using a discriminatory device (the weapon) to justify a prejudice against type of person (a owner of a weapon).

Mrs. Lawyermama,
How you raise your kids is entirely your business. I may differ with you on this or a number of other things but the source of dispute was not that a lady stated she would never let her kids play with toy guns in public, but that those who did so were irresponsible parents & possibly in need of professional help. It was an attempt to impose her parenting standards upon someone else. To a degree & in certain instances this is something that we all do but in this instance it seems to be a symptom of a deeper problem; prejudice against those in the gun friendly culture manifested as a fear of guns themselves.

as for you not being comfy with folks carrying real guns in public - I'm not comfortable with a lot of people I see every day having a car in their possession. But until they actually do something to harm me (or attempt to harm me) then it's simply not my business. The "hot-head" & "lack of common sense" arguments can be applied to anything capable of being dangerous (which would include most objects in the world) but it doesn't really play out. In most states where gun possession is not prohibited you really don't see a lot of negligent or malicious incidents with firearms by those who do carry. Considering the number of firearms possessed in this country & the number of folks who carry the number of incidents of firearms misuse (if you omit the overt confrontational crimes) are statistically insignificant (if you care for stats at all).

What I found disturbing was that someone was not only trying to impose their standards on another person, but that it was done in a condescending & insulting way. If that's what occurs when someone sees a small child under parental supervision with a toy, then how much prejudice will I have to deal with as an adult who carries a real firearm?

[LawyerMama]

Well, actually, MT, I was responding to many of the comments to Jill's initial post. But since you bring it up, yes, I also think it could be irresponsible to let your children play with realistic looking guns in public. Even more so if you are a gun owner. If your children *will* be around real guns at some point I think it's even more important to teach them that guns are not toys.

[Kim]

Jill,

Are you trying to garner media attention or just inflame the blogosphere? Is that what SV moms is about these days? I think it's an interesting debate, but could have been written in a less inflammatory and judgmental way.

[Jill Asher]

Hey Kim.
No, had no intention of getting any media attention. Nor did I expect to create a flame war throughout the blogosphere.

Actually, I am really surprised that we have blog trolls! The nasty, crazy comments have begun. That is what surprises me the most.

Oh, and yes.... I am extremely judgemental when it comes to parents carrying around a boy on their shoulder, having him point a toy gun (that looked VERY real) at the crowd and saying "bang bang" to everyone that walked by.

But back to your question - we have over 25 writers on this site. You may agree with some posts and not with others. I am totally cool with that. I don't agree with many, but I still think we are an awesome site with different points of view.

Jill

[Kim]

Hi Jill,

Thanks for your response, however, I never said whether I agreed with your post or not, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at regarding differing points of view. But, for the record, so far my two-year-old son has had no exposure to guns, toys or otherwise, and I hope to keep it that way for as long as I possibly can.

So although I agree with your position, I'm confused by the tone or intention of this post. Because, if you're trying to influence others to make the world a better--or less violent--place, writing critical, judgmental of posts about people you don’t know doesn’t seem to do it. It only just stirs people up, part of why I think we have the “mommy wars.” And frankly, I’m not at all surprised by the crazy or even nasty comments. If you are going to dish it out, you have to know someone out there is going to dish it back.

Furthermore, this kind of post feels like sensationalism to me. Like we can’t have a smart discussion about kids and violent toys, we have to slam some other parent to make our point…and get readers.

Just some honest thoughts,

-Kim

[Cara]

Kim.
Not all posts need to be smart. Not all posts need to stir on non-judgmental discussions. Quite frankly, I found Jill's post both informative, entertaining and spot on.

There is nothing "funny" or "smart" about having a kid walk around with a toy gun. It is scarey and she certainly makes a very clear point.

I also read her comment and she just pointed out that the writers on this site have different points of view. I will note that these writers deliver their messages in many different ways. This is what makes me come back to this site day after day. The posts I don't like, I skip.

This post actually inflames the NRA wars, not the mommy wars. I would think (or maybe I should say, hope) that most parents do recognize this as irresponsible parenting, except in Texas and Florida. So am I starting some more flame wars, now that I typed that?

Good Evening SV Moms. Love you site. Love this post. Loyal Reader. First time commenter.

[Yuri Orlov]

I own several guns. I practice safe gun handling and have never killed anyone, let alone shot anything living. I have a permit and carry a concealed weapon all the time. I lock up my guns in a safe and teach my children gun safety. My son has a cap gun which he treats as if it were real, i.e. not pointing it at people. He must ask to touch any of my guns and is supervised while doing so.

So, are you going to call me a bad parent too?

I happen to agree that it was irresponsible to allow their child to point a toy gun at people, but I feel you're way overreacting.

Also, calling real cops with real guns in to deal with a child holding a toy is the height of irresponsibility. Are you, nuts?

Just the other day, some hopolophobic idiot on a freeway in Florida called the cops because the car beside her had a child playing with a toy gun. The cops tracked down the license plate number and early the next morning they busted down the door and stormed the house. In the resulting confusion it would have been easy for a cop with an itchy trigger finger to have made a mistake and killed someone. Just because some idiot let their irrational fear get the better of them.

In this world, there are three classes of people, Wolves, Sheep and Sheepdogs. Which one are you? As for me, I choose to be a sheepdog. Everyone is responsible for their own safety.

Because when seconds count, the cops are minutes away. Remember that.

[Don]

Great post! I won't let my two sons play with guns. I won't let them learn to read and write either. I mean, sure guns are dangerous, but they pale in comparison to the evil that has been done over the centuries by written communication. The First and Second Amendments...never a worse pair of bad ideas has there ever been. Imagine the world without the Communist Manifesto or the Declaration of Independence. As John Lennon imagined, there'd be nothing to die for and we'd all be so much better off. So, please join me in keeping both books and guns out of the hands of our children so that they don't grow up to use them to for evil. It would sure save me and my wife the time and effort of parenting our children. *Group hug*