Nanny Poaching

    The local mothers' club--excuse me, parents' club--is all a-fuss because one member poached another member's nanny by offering her a full-time job, causing member number one to lose her date time and personal time. They're going to write a policy stating that club members shouldn't poach nannies.

    Ooohh, that'll stop it! (I should point out that we're talking about an organization with nearly two thousand members, not half a dozen.)

    Now I've had a nanny poached right out of my front yard. By a neighbor two doors down. It destroyed my life for several months; it left what I think is a lasting impact on my daughter. The scenario--we went on a nearly three week vacation; we returned and gave nanny of two years her back pay (we always paid year round, no matter where we were). The next day she quit, telling me her husband had decided while she was home on vacation that he didn't want her working anymore. A week later I spotted her pushing the neighbor's kid in a stroller. When said neighbor got home, I knocked on the door and confronted her. She said that the nanny had mentioned to her that she'd like a shorter day--one hour shorter--and she was happy to offer her that. She didn't apologize. I never spoke to her again.

    Oh, and had the nanny ever asked me for shorter hours? Uh, no.

    Meanwhile, after three weeks away, of course, I couldn't take any more time off from work to try to make a smooth transition happen; a friend was heading out on vacation, she lent her nanny to me while I started the nanny hunt. My daughter spent the better part of a month sobbing her eyes out not understanding why this person she had been so close to dropped out of her life. And since then the world has not been the safe sunny relaxing place for my daughter that it had been previously.

    Nanny pickings were slim that summer, we took the best of the bunch, honest, reliable, but not all that great at understanding a two-year-old's emotions. OK, as Princess Di would say, "thick as a plank." Not to mention that two is not a great time to change nannies; it's best for a nanny to know a kid for a while before said kid turns into a "charming" two year old. Nine months later we threw in the towel and opted for full-time preschool.

    So yeah, I'd like nanny poachers to be tied to a play structure so I could pelt them with playdough until they begged for mercy. But it ain't gonna happen.

    Go to a park some time. A city park. A busy city park with lots of nannies. You might see a mom with a new baby sitting on a bench. She's not out to enjoy the sun, she's on a scouting mission, looking for her targets. She may be a completely ethical person in every other area of her life, but this is her kid she's thinking about, and if she's trying to find someone to take care of her kid, she figures all's fair.

     I say it's mom beware, and no mothers' club policy is going to change that. You send out an email offering your nanny up for one day a week, face it, you might lose her. You might lose her if she goes to the park, a baby music class, the corner store--those venues aren't posted no-poaching. And if you do lose her, and a neighbor's nanny is on vacation, don't tell me she's not going to look awfully tempting to you. Forget the mommywars; the real carnage is in the nanny wars, and I've got the scars to prove it.

Comments

[Beth B]

I saw that type of nanny poaching on Desperate Housewives but did not hear of it happening until your post. But I knew that someone, somewhere had a story. Bad Bad nanny for waiting until she recieved back pay to tell you -- maybe that shows a sinister side. And bad, bad neighbor. Seriously, there is no need to poach nannies. Every nanny has a friend so why don't those nosey neighbors just ask if your nanny has a friend.

Or maybe nanny poachers should be banned from the informal nanny-sharing network that moms have. That is a logical consequence not to be messed with.

[Tekla Nee]

Naaahh, there are no logical consequences, and life is not fair. Because most people would tell you they'd never ever do that, but suddenly they need a nanny, have spotted a really good one, and justify it to themselves (I'm giving the nanny better hours...better pay...I'll appreciate her more... my kids are nicer...whatever). And no possible loss of network privileges is going to make a bit of difference.

[BirdieRoark]

I've seen first hand these moms go all crazy when their nannies find a better deal elsewhere.

What I find interesting, is that in the corporate world I can find a new job for better pay, more time off, whatever it is that I want, etc. without ever telling my current employer that something needs to change. No one thinks twice about that. But when it is a nanny - well, somehow she is supposed to be devoted to the family for as long as they want her, but she's not allowed to leave on her own. Hogwash.

Nannies, just like the rest of us, should have the right to work wherever they want. They shouldn't have to go to their current employer before and "offer" them the same as the potential employer.

Would you go to your boss and negotiate. I don't know, maybe you would. But sometimes it is easier to just say "I'm leaving for personal reasons." And then start your new job a week later.

[Tekla Nee]

Actually, I think there ought to be a whole lot more time and consideration given to the transition than there would be in a corporate job, whoever initiates it, because babies need to and do bond to their caregivers and are a whole lot more fragile than your average 40-something-year-old boss.

[Quizman]

Birdieroark is absolutely right. Nannies, who are in a lower rung of the economic pyramid - compared to people who hire them - have every right to chose a better opportunity.

While I do sympathize with he plight of parents, I have compassion for the nannies. Not all of them have sophisticated communication or negotiation skills to be able to articulate their desires (higher pay, less stressful home etc). Sometimes, they leave things unsaid due to politeness. Would it be better if they said, "I'm leaving because your two year old is a demanding little tyke"? :-P

One way to avoid high nanny turnover is to do the same things we do in the corporate world. Create a system of incentives that makes it difficult for them to leave.

A bit of soul searching is in order for your mommy's group rather than a ridiculous "bonded-labor" policy reminiscent of the 19th century.

[Quizman]

Okay! I had a 21 month old trying to climb my back as I wrote the previous comment. Apologies for the typos. :-)

[Tekla Nee]

All true.
But the interesting thing to me about the current discussion in the group is the idea that one can stop poaching by setting a policy, and then we'll all play nicely by these rules. How likely to y'all think that is? I'd be curious as to how people stand on that one.

[Chitoes]

Posting the nanny's availability on the club list was a generous act on the part of Mom #1. She had nothing to gain by doing so, except for helping out another family. Nanny poaching flies in the face of that generosity.

Although the club includes a huge number of families, the list is supposed to foster a sense of community. Posting to the club list seems different than posting on Craislist, where people who respond to ads don't show up half the time. When I sell something through the club marketplace list, I don't hesitate to accept a personal check or leave an item on our porch for a "fellow mom" - things I generally wouldn't do for a "stranger" on Craigslist.

Yes, nannies aren't serfs, and they're free to move on, just like any employee. But the big difference about the family situation vs. some corporate job is that the tender hearts of children are involved. While our colleagues might miss us dearly when we move up and out, they're probably not going to suffer from anxiety and have nightmares, and if we're conscientious, we try to make our transition as easy as possible for the people we've worked with. Or maybe we let our bosses know that the hours or pay aren't to our liking, that we try to talk it out before we leave one relationship for another.

Just like there are non-compete clauses in corporate employment contracts and NDAs, I do think Mom #2 probably crossed an ethical line if she lured away the nanny. Mom #2 hasn't come forward with a post saying, "I've done nothing wrong..." so I suspect that she's not feeling too proud of what she's done.

However, if the *nanny* opened the door to the job change, then Mom #2 should sleep better and consider herself lucky (though she might wonder if she'll find herself less than happy with the nanny's openness in communicating with her in the future).

So I'm not sure we can set a rule that says "no poaching nannies" any more than we can demand people to treat each other with respect and decency. What if there were a system like eBay's where you could leave "feedback" about interactions to say if you'd deal with that member again? Okay, it would never work for the moms' club, but it's an interesting idea, isn't it?

[Leslie]

I'd say these nannies are savvy business women. They grab the next opportunity just like all you would in your career. Lots of "Headhunters" and employers troll professional organizations looking for qualified recruits.

You're the boss/they are the employee (you aren't paying them under the table, are you? ;-) As far as I can see it's just like recruiting a top salesperson away from your competition.

The big difference is that they are most likely illegal immigrants who don't therefore have the choice of holding corporate jobs. They fly under the radar screen and have set up their own way to climb the ladder.

Is the real issue that this touches a nerve because in some cases the kids might be more attached to the nanny than to you? You can be in denial until the nanny leaves. Then you have watch your kids grieve for someone who you let take over your place in your their heart.

[Fred]

I have to disagree with Leslie. It looks like Mom #1 did have something to gain by offering her nanny for extra hours. She was trying to get more work for her nanny who obviously wasn't getting enough hours with just her family. Perhaps if her nanny wasn't able to get extra hours, Mom #1 was going to lose her anyways.

[Lydia M]

I undertsand that nannies would be tempted by better opportunites, just like any professionals would be with their career. However, I would view a nanny engagement contract like any contracting position for any company, e.g., a contractor in a software company for one year. It's not permanent, but there are goals, deliverables, and length of contract stated. I believe there is also penalty stated to protect the employer if the contractor leaves mid-way, or the contrator if the employer somehow cancels it earlier. If we are treating nanny hiring as a professional business, why shouldn't we expect nannies to be professional and follow their contract agreements? Two weeks notice? Penalty fees?

Nannies in the SV are paid very well, some of them even better than pre-school teachers, music movement classes teachers, instrument teachers hired by music school. Their lack of English skill nowadays becomes an asset because some parents welcome the chance to introduce a new lanague to their young ones. So, I don't think they really need much sympathy.

No matter what, the scars on the little ones is huge, that's something nothing law could protect. As many of us said, it's life.

At least with a legal binding, both the employers and contractors would feel a bit protected? Maybe I am being optmistic.

[Pamela]

I live in fear of nanny poachers. I have had the same nanny for 6 years. I pay well, and try to have a great, honest relationship. My family would be devastated if my nanny left. This is not like other jobs, you become part of the family unit. I do not blame nannies for looking for the best option, so I try to provide that.

[Jason]

People who poach nannies suck. How cruel to another family. How cruel to another child. If a nanny goes and looks for another job, that's fine. If she's unhappy and wants more money, less hours, shoot, well, so I do, so she should go find another job. But I would never try to steal someone else's nanny from under them.

Talk about bad form, and bad karma.

People here sometimes think they can just buy whatever they want, and screw everybody else. That is mean spirited, but I guess it gets them what they want.

I hope they are happy.

me

[stephv]

I don't live in a world of nannies, so maybe my analogy is not relevant, but here goes..I am a recruiter aka headhunter and therefore "poach" for a living. I do know that people don't leave a job-even when "poached"-unless they want to. Free will and all that stuff. The door opens, no one forces them to walk through..
The post about validating their emplyment and keeping them happy is the best prevention it seems.

[Girlz Mom]

I really don't get it. What is the big loss to Mom #1? The nanny obviously has no problem lying to her, or leaving with the knowledge that her lie will be discovered when Mom #1 sees her with the neighbor's kid. Is this person really a "loss" to her kids? When else has she lied to Mom #1 out of convenience. I say, good riddance, and good luck to Mom #2, who better do a lot of looking over her shoulder to see if the nanny casually lies to her, too.

[adrienne]

There are several things that annoy me about this
"nanny poaching." Maybe just a matter of semantics, but just the term "poaching" is bothersome. Somehow it feeds into the idea that
these nannies are property. "Someone tried to
steal my nanny." She is not YOUR nanny. You do not own her. Nannies are not property, they are
employees. While I think that trying to hire a
nanny currently working for another family with
a better offer is not nice, and troublesome for
family #1, I do not think it is unethical. Again,
this implies some kind of ownership to me, like
stealing.
Also, the fact that family#1 states that this is
devastating to their children and leaves emotional
scars, etc. Well, is family#1 planning on keeping
the nanny forever? When family#1 is finished with
her services, what kind of scars will that leave?
Children have to learn, albeit even at an early
age, that people come and go in life. The PARENTS
are their source of stability in my opinion. Plus,
I feel that parents overestimate the "pain" this
causes their children. Young children are very
fluid, they can grow accustom to new people very
quickly and will move on.

[Linda]

I think the missing piece of the analysis here is the value of the information that people provide to the club. The information about nannies has a value. It is valuable to the nannies as well as to the parents. The issue with "nanny poaching" off the list is that it impacts the value of the list for all. Will I ask my nanny if she would like to make double money (we pay her salary) for another family while we were on vacation in response to a request? I will not. It doesn't mean that she can't find whatever work she wants to find. But I'm not going to increase that possibility in a community where trust is routinely violated.

The corporate world isn't any different. If I had an employee who needed more hours, I'd try to find that person a situation with somebody I trusted.

In both situations, all an employer can do is treat their employee with respect and fairness, and try to keep the lines of communiction open.

[NikkiK]

To answer Tekla: While the leadership team cannot (nor wants to) police the membership and set hard and fast rules and regulations on any topic, it is our job to make policies and suggestions that set the tone of our club. The club's culture is at risk and that concern has been stated in many of the other comments left here. It seems very clear to most of us that if one can't trust the other members of the club to be considerate and honorable one would not extend themselves to post their nanny's available hours. That's the key issue to the club.

Maybe I'm just very naive, but it seems to me that the parents in this club are very grateful to have the resources made available by the club and find membership to the club to be an asset to their family. Because of this they would honor a club policy or at least think about why such a policy was made and come to understand how it could be harmful to someone in the very community that they rely on for information, support and friendship.

The issue, for me, has never been about stealing a nanny. She's noone's property to steal. It really isn't even about the rammifications of the actions. Nannys leave and children and parents learn how to cope. But, to have it happen by the hands of someone you trusted; that's the problem. The issue is how do we continue to have the expectation of loyalty within the group and thus how do we dissuade members from taking advantage of another member's kindness.

This is a very touchy subject and both sides have very valid points, but I hope that the club uses this as an opportunity to grow and educate its members. The club has hosted talks before on how to hire a nanny. Now, maybe we could go a step further and provide information on how to communicate with nannys, how to be sensitive to their needs, how to show appreciation, how to set expecatations or write contracts. Just my toughts...

[Leigh Metzler]

Just a minute here. Nannies in our area make $15 (bare bones) to $30 per hour with vacation time, stipends, cars provided, etc. Many of them do not report their earnings or pay taxes giving them an equivalent to $40-70,000 per year with little education or credentials.

Their departure disrupts the life of a child and a family. It is not easy to explain to a young child where their trusted caregiver has gone.

I am a member of this parents club. Someone helped their nanny by posting that she was looking for more hours. The nanny was hired away by another member of the group.

I would never again just provide my nannies contact info to the group. What is the fall out if other moms will not post their nanny's available hours for fear of poaching?

It comes down to respect and integrity. We need to respect what was freely offered.

[Super Amanda]

pay social security, health benefits and a great wage and the sun will come out again for you daughter.

[nani_ex]

OK, sooo many things bother me here:

#1) Shame on you "nanny poachers". That's disgusting - and why would you want a nanny that is so selfish that she would think nothing of breaking a child's heart and leave them crying in emotional pain day after day. Is that what you want for your child? You have violated a trust of which you do not deserve. And shame on the nanny, too.

#2) I think it's sad that the group felt the need to invoke such a policy. And, no, I don't think it's possible that a policy will stop those who have no ethics.

#3) I don't believe this is an issue of salary or benefits (I have yet to meet a nanny getting $30/hr and too often hear of parents not willing to spend more than $15/hr for top career nanny - try living on that!). While I am a "high-end nanny", I have worked for families unable to pay top salary. The lower salary did not affect my professionalism or ethics. I provided the same high-end service with the same high-end loyalty - even though it was extremely difficult on me financially. You can’t buy ethics. Money only shows the lack thereof. There’s no reason to not give adequate notice.

#4) Adrienne: Get a clue.
"Nanny poaching" is a perfectly legitimate term. We don't "own" wild animals either but taking them [from the rest of us] is called poaching.

While a nanny’s position is not designed to last forever, a child’s heart doesn’t know that. A beloved nanny leaving suddenly is the same to a child as if your husband left for work and, without notice, never returned. Young children are absolutely in-love with their nanny, just as you are with your husband (assuming that you are in love with him). When family #1 is finished with her services, there will be a plan to implement her leaving - a plan that will lesson the emotional toll on the child. The parents are an important source of stability but so, to, is the nanny. Research has shown again and again that when a young child has frequent turnover in primary caregivers it has a definite adverse affect on their ability to bond and feel secure. So much so, that it is better to have mediocre care with one provider then to have excellent care by a chain of providers. So, by “growing accustom to new people very quickly and moving on” they are learning to NOT CARE because it hurts too much. Nannies are not “people” they are primary caregivers, which puts them in a very different class.

#5) The position of ‘nanny’ is by law considered “at will”, meaning either party can quit at any time for any reason. Therefore, contracts are not legally binding. But, they are necessary to describe the employment agreement.

#6) Any nanny who goes around “grabbing the next opportunity” as they come along is NOT a professional and, perhaps, not worth having in the first place.

#7) A child is SUPPOSED to grieve when their nanny leaves. It doesn’t mean they love the nanny more than the parent. If the child doesn’t grieve, that is the sign that something is very wrong. That means that they have learned to NOT bond.

*

Nanny poaching is yet another reason why it is so important to hire a *professional* nanny. A true professional knows what she is looking for in an employer and has the communication skills to find it. And, when she does find it she’s not likely to leave without good reason. She knows how to negotiate with her employer when issues arise and, when they can't be resolved, she will always give proper notice. In addition, she will do whatever is possible to make a smooth transition for the child. When the time comes, I let the parents decide how best to end the relationship with their child (I once stayed 6mo while they searched for a replacement and then another 2wks to transition with her). What this nanny did is appalling, inexcusable - and certainly unprofessional!

I hear this story most commonly about foreign nannies that are not comfortable negotiating disagreements. Rather than discussing an issue, they just leave. I think a lot of parents want someone who will just do things their way and, therefore, often times end up with a "'yes' man". A professional is an educated artist. She understands the latest research and has her own theories and style. Find one whose ideas are similar to yours and let her do her thing. Don't micro manage. You will not always agree with her but at least you can discuss the issues. She will be able to support her beliefs and negotiate a resolution.

nani_ex
professional temporary in-home childcare
publiciaddy@ hotmail.com

[Karmyn Larsen]

I suggest this gently....one very real solution to avoid nanny-poaching issues: don't use a nanny. If parents stayed home with their children (either mom or dad), nanny poaching wouldn't be an issue.

Many working parents swap hours so either parent is with the child(ren) at all times. Someone who can afford nanny rates are not required to work to put food on the table but merely trying to maintain their lifestyle. Single parents or working parents with no choice but to work to survive cannot afford nannies.

This is just my opinion but anyone who chooses to work and allow another person (nanny or daycare) to care for their child is subjecting themselves, their child & their entire family to unnecessary heartache.

[Tekla Nee]

I suggest this gently--your response shows that you don't have a clue about how one survives as a working parent. Childcare is a necessity. Daycare centers are not always an economical alternative. If I called the person who looked after my kids while I work a babysitter would that make it clear that I need to work?

[Karmyn Larsen]

It's quite possible our society has parents duped into thinking childcare is a necessity to be a working parent. I know many who run a home-based business, cut back on spending, care for children in their home so they can stay with their children, work nights or "off business" hours while the other parent is home and other very creative solutions to avoid leaving their children with others. Tekla, might I inspire you to look at other options beside utilizing a babysitter....your child(ren) will thank you.

[Beth B.]

What - working at home without childcare???? I have not meet anyone who are happy with that situation. Yes, moms can sneak in working when kids are at school - but what about food shopping, laundry, volunteerting at school? All the other things that need to get done. I think "our children" will thank us for working out a situation that is best for the family - childcare or not.

I am a work at home mom who uses the time my kids are in school for work - but that made me EXHAUSTED. I did not have much work time after juggling preschool and elementary school schedules. I got some help two nights a week so I would not need to fold laundry at 11pm at night anymore..... I am happier and my kids are also. And they have underwear and socks in their drawers each morning.

[Tekla Nee]

Actually I don't use a babysitter anymore; my kids are older and, after school, are fairly self-watering; I do work at home, I am one of the very lucky lucky professionals who can telecommute. But it would have been impossible for me to put in a real days work when my children were younger. And it was much better for my toddlers to spend their days at the park with a loving babysitter than it would have been to have been being shushed by a stressed out and very distracted mommy. Most jobs cannot be done at night, at home, part time, or while taking care of kids properly, and still bring in enough money to pay for basic living expenses.

[stephv]

Yep. I work from home too. While on the phone, I have literally had to stand in the closet so my client could not hear "Barney and friends" in the background. Babysitting is a must.

[Martha]

Let me not so gently add that if you choose not to have childcare and that's a situation that works for your family, that's great for you. If you try to pass judgement, or instill any kind of guilt-trip on those who carefully select childcare, babysitters, nannies or whatever as the way that works best for their particular situation, shame on you.

[Karmyn Larsen]

I cast no shame on those who utilize childcare. I read a lot of posts about the frustration, heartache and difficulty when a nanny left the family. My only reason for sharing is to encourage others that:

1. You can stay home with your children (if you so desire) and work if needed

2. Working and leaving your children can open your family up to trouble...just read posts shared over nanny poaching.

3. There are many folks who do not use childcare so don't be afraid to do it

Just flipping through my address book, I count over 50 families who raise children without the use of a nanny. And make it in the Bay Area, and feel fulfilled. Some professions of moms: accountant, travel agent, business owner, counselor, real estate agent, ministry coordinator, childcare provider.

My whole point in posting - don't get sucked into the belief that outside childcare is necessary to survive.

[Beth B.]

Karmyn, now I am just curious. Are you saying that the 50 families you know do not use ANY babysitting, housekeeping, no help at all? Do they have family members that help (sisters, brothers, moms, dads)? Do they exchange babysitting with each other? I just find it really hard to believe that no one helps them. But I guess I am bias, I believe every working mom deserves some type of help. And there are many different types of help avaliable.

[Karmyn Larsen]

Hi Beth,

Help is different than hiring a nanny. Those who are fortunate to have family nearby utilize it (we don't have that advantage personally). A date night sitter is wonderful for the marriage. I personally use a 2/x month housekeeper (as well as a handful of families I referenced).

BUT, if my housekeeper or date night sitter gave notice (or found a better opportunity) it wouldn't disrupt our home as much as those who have lost their nannies have shared.

A child is the responsibility of the parents (or parent, if going at it solo). Hired sitters/nannies/daycares (even the most carefully selected ones) are merely providing a service for pay. You open yourself up by entrusting the care of your child(ren) to another.

I think it's all too common (in the Bay Area especially) for parents to assume they will need help. I hope to inspire parents that they can do it without the nanny.

Each family weighs the pros/cons of hiring outside help. I have 3 children (youngest is 2 in June) and possibly a 4th on the way...we'll know soon :-) My preference is to be the primary care provider. My husband travels infrequently so that helps.

I work about 8-10 hrs per week outside the home and about 30 hrs per week at home. That will shorten considerably if the 4th arrives. We have had to be VERY creative in when I work. Plus, we've had to restructure a lot of our spending so I could be home but it's been worth it. I've been home 8 years so we have some history of making it work.

Is it tiring sometimes? YES Is this just a season that will all too quickly pass? YES. A job (career) will be available for me after my children have grown. For now, I want to spend as much time with my children as possible - which means I probably should stop typing and go read with my son *grin*

I mean no hard feelings. I truly feel for those who have had a nanny leave that their children have bonded with and the parents have counted on. Again, my only gentle suggestion to avoiding the whole nanny poaching ordeal is to not utilize a nanny.