Katie Couric on Mean Girls (And Boys) Online

The hullabaloo over Miley Cyrus has died down.  My mom said in her inimitable way that “Vanity Fair should be ashamed of itself.”   I think it’s a shame that the magazine, her parents and her managers didn’t handle it better, and there is  nothing  more  troubling and insidious  than  the premature sexualization of teen stars, and really the oversexualization of just about any woman on TV today.  But that’s for another time.

A lot of Moms I know have been thinking about the dark side of the Internet.  I’m not talking about porn sites and pedophile chat rooms, but the idea that the Internet has become a dumping ground, literally, for cruel comments, ostracization and just generally rude and uncivil behavior.  Are some of these sites playing to our basest instinct, the very worst of human nature?

I’ve always been slightly amazed at the vitriolic nature of some blog postings I’ve read, and the exchanges between those who are not “like minded” to say the least.  But now kids are heading to places where they not only unload on their friends and classmates, but unleash the most scurrilous and cruel critiques--all anonymously.

There’s an honesty box you can opt for on your Facebook page that can be a blank slate for anonymous insults from your “friends.”  Then there’s this Juicycampus.com--a website where college kids post completely anonymous gossip about classmates.  At last count it was available on about 60 campuses already, and there’s no telling how many people have been hurt by the nasty comments. You only have to think of the devastation this can have on fragile, developing psyches.  Malicious gossip and back stabbing are nothing new, but somehow when you see it up there in black and white, it’s really disturbing.

I read that a college junior from Baylor was called “the biggest slut on campus,” students at UC Irvine discussed the “most promiscuous sorority girls” at their school.  The Juicycampus website says it has guidelines about defamation, but do the unfortunate students who’ve seen their names there believe that?

Some campuses like Baylor, Pepperdine, and Loyola Marymount have seen efforts from student groups to ban Juicycampus.com, but it’s proven harder than you’d expect.  The site isn’t run by university IT departments.  Campus networks can filter out certain sites, but ultimately it doesn’t prevent people from accessing them on their own dime.

It is reassuring, though, that it’s offensive to some students.  I just recently went on college tour with my daughter Ellie, and I know she expressed real concern about the schools that have Juicycampus pages, asking me “won’t this affect the way prospective students may feel about these schools?”

The anonymous insult trend is prevalent among much younger kids, as well.  Here in NYC there’s a private school called Horace Mann, and it was the subject of a lengthy article in New York Magazine.  Students were using Facebook pages to write sexist and profane comments about women and about their teachers.  It launched a debate about whether something happening on a “personal” website is a school matter.  Or is it tantamount to reading someone’s diary?  I guess if you write your diary for 70 million people, it is.

At RateMyTeacher.com students as young as grade school can post anonymous critiques of their teachers.  Imagine being the teacher who reads that she or he is the “the worst ever” or “psychotic for sure,” having no clue who wrote it and no real defense against the accusations.

These kinds of attacks are the 2.0 version of seeing your name on a bathroom wall, only they can’t always be Windexed away.  This stuff online stays there, pretty much forever.

This is the first generation of kids to really have to confront the issue of cyberfootprints and online reputation defense.  It’s scary, and I don’t envy them.

Is the genie out of the bottle?  Are parents today simply oblivious to the anonymous hate speech that’s so pervasive?   I think our jobs as Moms have gotten a lot harder, and it seems to me we need to have some kind of concerted effort, along with our schools and other leaders, to communicate to our kids that freedom of expression is a protected right in this country--but are we expressing ourselves too freely?

Civil discourse and good manners have already taken a beating.  Are we now reaching a whole new ugly level because, under the cloak of anonymity, good manners are lost in cyberspace?

Original New York City Moms Blog Post

Katie Couric is the anchor and managing editor of the CBS Evening News with Katie Couric, and the mother of Ellie, 16, and Carrie, 12.

Comments

[canape]

Speaking of just girls, I don't think there is more meanness now than when I was in junior high. Meanness keeps up with technology.

With the invention of 3 way calling came the practice of two girls having a conversation about the third one who was being silent in the background so that one of the girls talking didn't know it. I learned way too much of what some girls thought of me that way.

Unfortunately, teens will always be cruel to each other. The internet has just given them a new tool to use.

Come to think of it, it's not just teens, is it? Most bloggers have had "Anonymous" pop in and leave nasty comments. As a Mommyblogger, I guess I'll just be a little more prepared in helping my kids deal with cyberbullies.

[JessicaAPISS]

Well said Katie - I think you need your own website & nationally-syndicated column ASAP!

[Linsey K / KrolikLegal]

I think there is something about the distance of technology that entices people to say things that they would never, ever say in person. Is it a different persona or the real one that you see online? Some people are probably much meaner online. And, then, the online reader sometimes takes things in different ways than the "speaker" intended, due to emphasis being lost, the absence of body language (although in some cases, maybe we're grateful to miss out on the mean body language too!), etc.

And, yes, especially with girls this kind of cruelty seems to happen. They learn it early and, unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily go away past the teenage years. Just get a group of women together and, at some point, you will see the claws come out! ARE boys as vicious? I'm not so sure...

[tracey]

First of all, thanks for posting on NYC Moms Blog, Katie! Lovely job!

It makes one wonder what drives humans to hurt each other... Is there some instinct deep within that cannot be quelched? Something to make ourselves bigger than others in society?

All we can do is NOT frequent those sites and warn our children about the dangers of such sites. They can be permamently damaging to unsuspecting innocents...

[Adventures In Babywearing]

My boys are still too young for the Internet in general but seeing the negativity among the Mommy Blogger set has been disappointing. And if this had been around when *I* was in high school, with my own image issues as it was, I imagine it could have destroyed me.

Stephanie

[Liz]

I was interviewed by a local paper, recently, and the reporter was concerned about whether or not my publlishing personal stories on the internet would be seen as an open invitation to "comment trolls."

Of course, like real life, I don't believe there's any way to make everything I say (or, write) agreeable.

But, it's like I tell my kids (when I can get their attention, I mean) the best way to deal with bullies is NOT not to engage them into the conversation.

If only life had a "delete" button, eh?

This is an absolutely wonderful post, Ms. Couric - thank you!

[liz]

that's crazy. i hadn't heard about juicycampus before and now i'm all hot and bothered.
the internet offers so much information and so much knowledge. it's always such as shame when sites such as this really do play into our darker sides.
reading about young girls (and boys) leaving threats on one another's myspace pages, digitally harassing classmates, and now "anonymously" leaving mean-spirited, insulting comments about classmates just creates a more hostile environment (and let's face it, college is already hostile enough). well, the mind just boggles.

[Stacey]

It saddens and angers me to know that these kinds of things are happening. Worse yet, that there are websites that actually *encourage* people to be nasty! I'll just never understand that.

Times certainly have changed since I was a teenager!

[Jill Asher]

I had pretty low self esteem as a teenager. If this technology was around then, it would have crushed me. Seriously! If I saw something negative written about me online, I would have been devestated!

As a mother of two girls, I have a hard time finding the balance of what to allow them to participate in online. They already, at the ripe old age of 6 and 8 LOVE email. They want their own blog (cause as they say, mommy is always blogging), they want to chat with their friends on IM (I have said absolultely no that that one). They are the kids of social media. They will want to be on facebook or myspace. They will want to text their friends with their new techie language.

You know what is also scarey? I am afraid that our children will wrap their identity up by their "online" life, and miss out on REAL friendships. I have already begun to experience that... being online way too much and neglecting my friends. You can NOT replace real friends, real experiences and real life for that "pretend" world online! Hopefully, they will be able to stay offline... hopefully.

I am scared... really scared!

Thank you so much for guest contributing on NYC Moms Blog. I hope we read more from you on this site.... and welcome!

Jill Asher

[Devra Renner]

Technology is both a blessing and a curse. The tough part for many parents of this current generation's kids is we didn't have "Online" anything. We had Atari, and yeah, we had some chatrooms, but that was about it. Cell phones? They were like bricks the size of our heads, and no kid could easily carry one around anyway. Now the tech world has expanded so quickly parents are finding themselves being left in the technological dust almost overnight. It's hard to keep up with "the latest" because our kids hear about it first!

Yes, it is like the bathroom wall, only one text and a teen's social rep can be ruined! Ack!

There isn't a magic answer as to what parents can do about it all, but I suspect it's only going to get more intense and difficult as the technology develops faster than you can say training bra or speak an octave lower!

Keep talking with your kids, even if it seems old fashioned because until G-d forbid they roll out Kid 2.0, we're still dealing with people.

[xiaolinmama]

Katie,
I think you are spot on.

I used to work for this fantastic group that worked on bullying issues at schools after Columbine. Parents, schools and kids are absolutely ill equipped to handle these issues. You're right kids have it much tougher today than when all we had to worry about was the "bathroom wall".

We didn't teach kids "self defense" with punches but taught conflict resolution, IDing bullying behaviors so that kids knew that comments like those on juicycampus are NOT okay, no matter how harmless they think it may be and what they could do to be an advocate.

Interestingly enough, kids always told me that they learned their behavior from the adults around them and the example they set, so if we tell kids that sites like Juicy Campus are atrocious and that behavior like that is unacceptable/cowardly and actually model by not critizing others like Miley, then maybe we have a chance of turning the tide of lower moral standards and bad behavior.
Just my 2 cents.
sheila

[Nicole/wksocmom]

Wonderful post, thank you for writing. It's hard to know whether people are worse, or there's now an easier forum. I've avoided the "kid chat" type sites, but what I've seen on some blogs and articles is awful. That anonymity I guess is tempting for some.

I got teased in school, but was very lucky to have a good group of friend, and a mom who totally had my back. So as parents we really need to show our own kids we are there for them, and we need to support those wonderful kid activitists who are fighting this.

[Jamie R Lentzner]

I think it is just like a bully to post things about someone, whether true or not. I know having had just mean comments on my blog from people has made me deliver a thick skin, and I am an adult. Great post - with a six year old daughter though it makes cringe to think what the internet will have in store for her.

[Jean]

Hearing about things like this make me sad for our kids. It's so much harder to grow up now. But then again, free speech, right? Maybe once there are some defamation lawsuits people will be more careful about what they post.

I feel less concerned about the Rate My Teacher sites because they are adults, and presumably know that their students are going to hate them. :)

[Cheryl Wenzel/New Mom Central]

I'll tell you what. If I ever caught my son or daughter being so vicious there would be some SERIOUS consequencing going on! They would certainly know from us, their parents, that there is NO EXCUSE to taunt, harass, bully, or gossip about other people, no matter how mad you may be at them, or how popular it may be.

I'm already trying to teach them about respect and empathy for others at the ripe age of 3. I'm sure it goes over their heads for the most part, but if nothing else they are learning that I don't like it if they are mean to someone else and that it is not acceptable behavior. And this will be across the board, whether it's in the privacy of "girltalk" or on a public forum like Juicycampus.

Thank you for a great post, Katie.

Cheryl W.

[Gwendolen Gross]

I'm still explaining to my kids that I'm not worried THEY'LL say inappropriate things online (they're only 9 and 6), but that other people might. "Why," leads to long discussions about how unhappy people try to get attention, try to drag other people into their unhappiness, or only feel powerful when they're hurting other people. Of course, it's more complicated when the bullies don't have to do anything to hide from (or, as you mentioned, actually berate) the teacher. I think we want real consequences for behavior whenever we can use the American Justice System, but the shadow of online presence makes this dimensionally more complicated.
I still hope by teaching our children well we can both protect and empower them--if someone is angry or sad enough to hurt other people, you just don't want to hang with that person, virtually, or face to face.
Thanks for your post--very, very important!
Gwendolen Gross (author of The Other Mother and blogger at NJ Moms)

[DC Nicole]

Ugh, this troubles me!

it's so true that under the cloak of anonymity kids are going to say things that they wouldn't say to someone's face or even behind their back, fearing it would get back to them.

My niece is a sixth grader (at a very, very nice all-girls private school) and she has transformed in merely a year; she's still a sweet 'kid' to her younger brother and sister and my 4-year-old, but get her with her friends and she seems to have aged 5 years...

[Cheryl Wenzel/New Mom Central]

All I know is if I ever caught my son or daughter doing something like this there would be some SERIOUS consequences. They would know that we, as their parents, will not tolerate any kind of taunting, harassment, bullying, or gossiping, I don't care how mad they are at someone, or how popular this practice is. And they would have to go and apologize to the person IN PERSON. This would stop it pretty quickly, I would imagine.

I'm already trying to teach my children, who are at the "ripe" age of 3, not to be mean or inconsiderate. I'm sure most of it goes over their heads, but at least they're learning that I don't like that kind of behavior and that it is unacceptable. I also try to model respectful behavior for them by treating them with respect.

It's hard to teach kids not to be mean and vicious, however, when look how we adults, as reflected in the media, make fun of other adults who make mistakes, like Paula Abdul's recent mistake on American Idol.

Thank you for a great post, Katie. And for enlightening me on this kind of behavior

[Rox]

Welcome to the Silicon Valley Moms Group, Katie, and thank you for this fantastic post; clearly your talents extend far beyond television.

I, too, fear what lies ahead in cyberworld for my kids... Whereas I can make sure that we live in a safe place, and I can try to instill in them values of goodness and kindness, the world is going to come to our doorstep via the internet regardless of my sitting by my kids at the computer. With this in mind, I realized upon reading your post that I'm going to have to work a little harder on building their backbones and teaching resilience. As I always tell my kids after tough days at school, they can control their own behavior and their reactions to other people's behavior, but they can never control other people's behavior. I don't believe that the internet will ever be controlled enough for sites like Juicy Campus to go away -- so I'll do my best to teach my kids to be cyber-wise, just like I'll try to teach them street smarts. If we parents cover the bases, maybe this new level of meanness will fade to black.

[Beth Blecherman]

I agree that younger kids (even college students) don't understand that putting things online, even if it is in social networking software - is online! There is no privacy anymore, so they need to be careful what they put online. Sites like juicycampus are very disturbing because "anonymous" gossip is the worst type - where no one is held accountable. I think there are so many positive sides of online social networking - but the mean boys and girls ruin it for the rest of us seriously trying to create new social connections.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the New York City Moms Blog - we hope to hear more!!!

[Lisa Stone]

Terrific post Katie. Welcome! I've linked your post and NYC Moms Blog from the homepage of BlogHer.com.

My opinion? The facts of life for children, teens and their parents now include cyberspace. That's why our family computer is in the kitchen, so I can stir spaghetti while making sure I know exactly the surfing habits of our eight- and 12-year-old.

Every parent I know -- myself included -- grapples with cyberliteracy. At what age should my 12-year-old son be allowed to open a Facebook or Bebo profile? (Answer: 13, with careful guidelines.) Should my eight-year-old be allowed to play online games with a community "chat" function? (No way.)

This is the era where parents do need an entirely new guidebook.

At the same time, I love this brave new world. Your question, "Are we expressing ourselves too freely?" invokes the First Amendment that has been sacred to me for 20 years as a journalist. Too freely by what measure? By whose? I respect my senators and congressional representatives enormously -- but I need to make those choices for myself and for my kids. As in the case of religion, every person -- and every family -- must make their own choice.

And that's why I love your post. An educated choice requires the kind of terrific conversation I see here -- hashing out the issues, sharing the difficulty of ushering our little babies through the awful adolescent years just got a google harder.

I'm a big believer that children of every age (me included) do need now to learn how to ignore the trolls and take care of herself online. Is Juicyc*mpus the new bathroom wall? Fine. I say, ignore them too, honey.

As my own mother told me, God gave you one self; treat that self with the same respect you believe other people should be treated. And follow the Golden Rule.

[Julie]

"This stuff online stays there, pretty much forever."

That's a significant detail--and a serious problem for rising generations, especially as they look for employment. Even if we (or our kids) think a post, a profile, an image, a comment, or other electronic data is gone, that's rarely the case. Just ask a digital forensics expert who has recovered so-called deleted data or web browsing or user history. It's a misconception that hitting delete or emptying a trash bin purges electronic data. Control is also illusory.

Given that what's written online is indelible and can spread beyond our control (e.g., getting linked, reposted, etc.), despite illusions of control, it looks like parenting is now going to get technical, whether we want it to or not.

[Amy (svmoms)]

Katie, thank you for posting on this issue -- I had no idea that things had gotten to this level on university campuses. It frightens me that our children have to deal with the possibility of public humiliation by mean-spirited people, especially at such a 'delicate' time in their lives.

We moved to England a couple of years ago partly to be closer to family but partly to slow down and enjoy a quieter pace of life than we had in Silicon Valley. I worry, though, that if/when we ever move back (or if our children decide to go to university in the US) they will be ill-prepared to handle issues such as these, and we as parents will be ill-prepared to help guide them through it. Thanks again for posting about it!

[Cheryl Wenzel/New Mom Central]

Ummm...Katie, I don't know if you're still reading comments but I just happened to go to Juicycampus.com so that I can be informed. [quote from racist poem deleted]
Excuse me!? Isn't someone monitoring this site? Is this kind of hate-mongering legal to post on a public site? This seems like a hate crime to me, even if it is on the Internet. At the least it's inciting hatred and racism. (Never mind about the hatred aimed at girls via all the sexual "slams" on this site.)

I didn't know if you saw this post but I felt it was important to point it out.

Cheryl W.

[Alix]

Katie,
Jill's point about many teens already having low self-esteem is interesting to me - do we think the hateful things said online might lead to more teen suicides? I'm frightened to think this may be a contributor, one that adults might initially or forever overlook unless they are more aware of what's going on online. So, thank you for elevating this issue to our "oldster" consciousness.

I experienced being the topic of one person's blog in a not-nice way - this person was an anonymous blogger so could say anything he wanted. I was absolutely gleeful when this person's identity was not only revealed in newspapers, but he was forced to take down his blog for legal reasons. Anonymous hubris CAN go too far, but unlike this guy's blog, anonymous comments usually cannot be traced back to the writer.

[Cheryl Wenzel/New Mom Central]

Due to the editing of my recent post, I don't think my point was made so I'd like to amend it here.

I went to Juicycampus.com and on page 2 there is a hate message about Blacks that is absolutely despicable. I had typed in the actual post (a cleaned up version), but it was deleted along with some prior text before the post was printed and didn't really make sense without that context.

I wrote the post to point out that racist hate "mail" is being posted on Juicycampus along with "gossip" and rumors. I am concerned about this and was questioning whether this kind of post, that incites racism and hatred against another group, is legal.

The site is obviously being taken advantage of by racists. The post had absolutely nothing to do with anyone in particular. I doubt that this was the intent.

Cheryl W.

[Whymommy]

New technology does provide an opportunity for new nasty comments, where perhaps they wouldn't have existed before.

However, and this is a big however, I think that new technology also gives us more chances to be kind to one another. I've seen it myself, and I bet many of us have -- bloggers uniting over and over again to help one of their own. Just this year, fellow bloggers formed a team to help me battle (and beat!) a particularly nasty form of breast cancer. Bloggers helped a mother-to-be outfit her nursery and dress her child when the money ran out. Bloggers rallied to the side of another with a third diagnosis of cancer, this time one that had spread beyond the original site. Bloggers regularly lift each other up and encourage each other through long days of diapers, tantrumming, teething, and loneliness.

I don't think that this is a phenomenon unique to our generation. One last blogger to consider is a little girl named Laura, who launched a site last December called "25 days to make a difference." Her site is an incredible example of using technology for good and spreading kindness where there may not have been any before. I can only hope that more teens and preteens choose to initiate projects like that, rather than leave damaging comments on JuicyCampus, Facebook, and the like.

[moodymommy (aka Sophia Leto)]

Back when I was a high school teacher, I began the first day of class discussing the power of language. I asked them if the old adage, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" is really true. Actually, it is the opposite. I broke my arm when I was a child and I can't remember that pain. However, some people called me "big nose" in junior high and I still remember how that hurt. Words are VERY powerful. We need to preserve our rights to use them freely. However, just because adults have the right to free speech does not mean minors should. Parents and teachers have a duty to help children understand the power of language before these children earn the right to use it freely. I'm not saying that the answer is to censor or gag these children, I'm just saying that children have a lot to learn before they are able to use words wisely. As far as all this hateful stuff going on at college campuses, I hope that, by now, these kids have been around long enough to recognize bullsh*t when they see it. We need to give them more credit. True, anyone can say anything online these days. But it is that very fact that will negate most of the hatred and lies that are being posted. In this brave "new" world of the internet, we all must learn how to determine fact from fiction.

[Donna]

Terrific post and terrific comments. Thank you for sharing your thoughts here and for starting the conversation. I hope to read more of your thoughts on our brave, new world.

[To Think Is To Create]

Welcome to the SVMoms Group Katie! Great thought provoking post you've written here. I wrote about a similar idea recently in a post titled "Mean Girls" on my blog...the idea that these mean girls from when we were younger turn into mean wives, then mean moms and mean bloggers. There's something that these mean girls do, or rather don't do, and they create their own mean girls in their daughters. Somewhere along the line the cycle needs to be broken.

[PunditMom]

Katie, First, welcome to SVMoms, et al! You make a great point, which is one reason I want to keep my eight-year-old from the Internet as long as possible. "PunditGirl," as a second-grader is just beginning to be introduced to the cruelties that other kids can hurl at you about your clothes or your friends or a whole host of other things. I know I won't be able to keep these things from happening, but if we could help our kids learn to be more civil, it might be a good start.

PunditGirl recently asked me why, if we are always telling kids to be polite and thoughtful of other people's feelings, grown-ups and older kids don't seem to follow that same advice. I wish I had had a good answer for her.

[holli]

I am very glad you've chosen to add your voice to SVMoms, Katie. I'm not sure if you're still reading comments - I've been a tad out of the loop due to a family crisis, but I did want to comment on this post.

I think the best way we can teach our children is to lead by example.. to set the gold standard for them to follow. There seems to have been an outcry among many bloggers online about cyber-bullying, trolling, etc. and while it isn't true 100% of the time - I see a great deal of these posts written by women who aren't exactly practicing what they preach.

I had my share of mean girls "back in the day" and I find myself back in those same, dark spaces when I feel excluded or hurt. Blogging has brought things into my life I never expected. But the good far outweighs the bad, and I hope these are lessons I can pass on to my daughter someday.

Thank you for taking time to write on this topic. I look forward to future posts.

[Kate]

I am dealing with this issue now it it was done via cell phone texting. Luckily, it wasn't nasty or *too* mean spirited and I managed to catch it before my 11 yr old sixth grade daughter did ::sigh:: But it still makes me sad for her.

[Rachel]

Wow, I had never heard of Juicycampus before. My kids are still young, 7, 4 and 2 and, of course, do not have unsupervised access to the web. I have heard of cyberbullies but I guess I've never really entertained the idea that one of my kids could be a target at some point in their lives. I believe that everyone has an opinion and has the right to express that opinion. We live in a country that protects that right. But, I don't believe that you have the right to hurt someone or defame them or create gossip or threats, especially when hiding behind the anonymity of a computer.

I hope that I can teach my kids to respect people and to disregard those people that choose to be bullies. That may sound naive and probably is, but I can hope that. In reality, I know that I will be drying my fair share of my girls' tears in the coming years because of some other girl's comments. I cried my own while growing up, but I didn't have to deal with gossip and back stabbing through the far reaching internet. I suppose when the time comes, it will, unfortunately, be a learing experience for both me and my kids.